Friday, August 21, 2015

Hinges for Barker Doors on IKEA Sektion

In case you missed it, check out our previous post on combining IKEA Sektion cabinet boxes and Baker doors HERE. This post is meant to explain why the hinges recommended in our last post work so you can order your hinges and doors with confidence.

Recall from the last post that we used Blum's Clip Top Blumotion hinge and hinge plate
     (build.com is super cheap for the hinges w/ free shipping and we get a small commission)

to connect our custom Barker cabinet doors to the IKEA Sektion cabinet boxes. Since IKEA cabinets are frameless (aka European style) with full overlay doors, we started searching for the correct hinge by focusing on Blum hinges specifically for frameless cabinets.
Traditional Cabinets have a Face Frame - Euro Cabinets are Frameless



 The profile view of a full overlay cabinet door meeting the box of a frameless cabinet looks like this:


The measurements from the Ikea Boxes and standard drilling pattern from Barker Doors are:
  • W =  19mm (3/4 in.) - Thickness of the Ikea frame.
  • B =  3.5 mm - Boring distance of the hinge cup from the edge the door. This is set by Barker.
  • H = 0 - This is the hinge plate height. 0 is standard for full overlay doors.
  • T = 0.8 in. - Thickness of the door set by Barker. No problem until the door is 0.9 in. or greater.
  •  Overlay = 17.5mm (11/16 in.) - This is the amount the door overlays the cabinet frame.
Calculating the Overlay:
Recall the Ikea doors are 1/8 in. smaller than the cabinet frame so there is 1/16 in showing all the way around the cabinet. This is what cabinet makers call the reveal. So Ikea cabinets have a 1/16 in. (1.5 mm) reveal. Overlay is measured by subtracting the the reveal (1/16 in) from the width of the cabinet frame (W = 3/4 in), so the overlay is 11/16 in. (17.5mm).  

With all the measurements, we went to Blum's product catalog and looked at the overlay tables to select our hinges. Blumotion Clip Top hinges with integrated soft close mechanisms are the top of the line choice from Blum. The closest match in the line was model: 73B3550 hinge.

Overlay Table for Hinge 73B3550
We know H= 0 and B= 3.5; we desire a 17.5 mm overlay. It looks like the 73B3550 hinge will give us a 16.5 mm overlay. The good news is the hinges are adjustable by +/- 2 mm which means we can get an overlay between 14.5 and 18.5mm with this hinge. It works!

You can purchase the Ikea style hinge plates that use the parallel rows of holes pre-drilled in the Ikea boxes (177H3100E), BUT the 35mm hinge cups on the door (location where the hinges attach to the door) must be drilled at a custom location. This is $18 per door at Barker; making the entire door almost 50% more expensive.


Instead, we used Blum 174H7100E and drilled a custom location for the hinge plate on the cabinet frame. The 174H7100E hinge plate sits exactly between the holes pre-drilled by Ikea. The plate has "Expando" plastic dowels pre-installed on the mounting screws. These little plastic expansion anchors require pre-drilling but are much stronger in the MDF of the Ikea cabinet frame than using only screws.

The process for selecting proper hinges is actually pretty simple once you understand the overlay tables from Blum. I hope the post helps you understand how we selected the right hinges. If you need any help, we love to answer comments!

FAQ's:


  • Do Blum Hinges have built in dampers? 

Blum has two lines of hinges- CLIP top hinges and CLIP top BLUMOTION hinges. The hinges designated as BLUMOTION have integrated drawer dampers. Regular CLIP top hinges require a separate damper for soft close. We recommended CLIP top BLUMOTION hinges 73B3550. 

  • What hinges should you use for a corner cabinet with bi-fold doors?

We used the CLIP top 170 Degree Full Overlay hinge (71T6550) between the cabinet frame and the door. We used a CLIP top Bi-Fold Self-Closing 60 Degree hinge (79T8500.10) between the Bi fold doors on the lazy susan cabinet. The hinge plate 174H7100E recommended in the post works in this application as well.

  • What hinges should you use for a corner cabinet with a door at 45 degrees? 

I was not aware of this problem until a commenter asked the question. Ikea makes base and wall corner cabinets with a door at 45 degrees like the picture below.
See the 45 degree upper corner cabinet. Source

To accomplish this ikea uses 45 degree hinges, part number 202.619.92. Blum hinge 79T5550 accomplishes the same function. In checking the overlay table for the 79T5550 with the Barker boring distance of 3.5 mm and a H of 0 with the 174H7100E hinge plate, there is a 5.5 mm reveal between the 45 degree cabinet door and the door next to it. This is 2.5 mm too much as all the other adjacent doors are spaced at 3 mm. You can adjust the hinge up to 2 mm to minimize this reveal and end up with a 3.5 mm reveal on the hinge side of the door and a 2.5 mm reveal on the opposite side. From here, you can cheat the adjacent doors over a small bit and get everything to look right. So for a 45 degree corner cabinet use hinge 79T5550 and hinge plate 174H7100E. 

  • Which hinge should you use when you have pull out drawers behind the the cabinet door?

The Blum CLIP top 155 degree hinge  71T7500N is the closest I could find that will work. What you are looking for is door protrusion (P) to be 0 or less to give the drawers room to slide out. This hinge will have a 14.5mm overlay with barkers 3.5mm boring distance when you use the 0 height hinge plate. You can adjust the door 2mm to get it to a 16.5mm overlay but that door is going to be 1mm off on the overlay vs the other doors (remember the other doors have a 17.5mm overlay). Using a hinge with a 14.5mm adjusted to 16.5mm overlay was my solution on the lazy Suzann cabinet and I can't really tell. 
Alternatively you could order those doors without hinge cups and call a local cabinet shop and ask if they can do 35mm hinge cups for you on a few doors. Tell them you need the boring distance at 6mm and you would be golden. The local cabinet shop I called said it would be $10 per door. This was actually my plan, but Barker accidentally drilled hinge cups on the lazy Susan door when I did not specify. They offered to ship out a new undrilled door for free, but it ended up looking fine in my case. 
Keep in mind the recommended hinge for this application (71T7500N) is a regular CLIP top hinge without integrated soft close. You need to order the soft close mechanism 973a7000 which clips onto the hinge if you want soft close. 

  •  Help! One of my doors had a hinge cup drilled incorrectly!

Luckily you are not the first person to need to plug a hinge cup! Order a repair plug:
http://www.rockler.com/35mm-hinge-hole-repair-kit
or
http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-Oak-Hinge-Hole-Kit/dp/B001ENZI72
That wooden plug should be strong enough to screw into and mount your door. 

  
   

46 comments:

  1. Great article. Couple questions. When you said:

    Instead we used Blum 177H3100E and placed the hinge plate on the cabinet frame. The 174H7100E hinge plate sits exactly between the Ikea predrilled holes. It has "Expando" plastic dowels pre installed on the mounting screws.

    Is that a typo or did you use a different hinge plate than the recommended 174H7100E? I'm about to tackle some barker doors on ikea sektion frames so I would love some clarity before I order the hinges. Also are these the replacement hinges for the utrusta 125degree hinges only? I have two tall pantry cabinets that are including 3 packs of the 153 degree utrusta hinges so I wondered if the hinges above would also work for those ikea hinges as well. Thanks in advance!

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    1. Ruth, that is indeed a typo! I'll make the correction thank you! It should say 174H7100E not 177H3100E.

      For your pantry cabinet question - we have one tall pantry cabinet (18x80 - Ikea model no. 402.654.42). We used the same blum hinges (Blum Clip Top Blumotion hinge - 73B3550 and 0 rise hinge plate 174H7100E) for that cabinet as well. The only case where we used alternate hinges was for the lazy susan cabinet.

      Make sure to shop around for your hinges. When we ordered from ahturf.com for $3.26 per hinge and 58c per hinge plate.

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    2. This is awesome ! I can't express how greatful I am for the time you took to post this. I've been out of my mind trying to figure out what I'd be getting into if I went with barker doors. I haven't been able to beat the price even after paying to have them professionally stained. And thanks for the tip on the price shopping I've been looking around trying to get a decent price. Also what would you guess it takes time wise to assemble the cabinets. Any tips on how to move that process along. I've read so many different opinions. We have about 22 cabinets mostly base cabs and 2 -30" tall pantry cabs.

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    3. Ikea cabinets are pretty easy to assemble. To speed the process along, a decent power screw driver will help a lot. I didn't put all the finishing nails in that secure the hard board back. I figured 4 or 5 nails were plenty.

      The first cabinet will take you 30 minutes to put together and the last 15 boxes will take you 10 minutes as you get better at it so figure on 15 minutes per cabinet.

      I edge banded all of our cabinet boxes before assemble cabinets so the edge of the cabinet matched the door. I'll probably do a post on it.

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  2. Also do I still need the ikea dampers or does the replacement Blum hinge have a built in damper? I'm getting conflicting info when I search that question. Thanks!!

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    1. The Blum Clip Top Blumotion hinges have the damper integrated into the hinge. If you look at the first picture of the hinge in the blog post you will notice there is a little orange gear, metal bumper, and a little black switch. That is the soft close mechanism. You can turn soft close on and off or adjust the sensitivity by moving the metal bumper and setting it with the black switch!

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  3. Which hinge did you use for the corner cabinet?

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  4. You need two hinges to make the corner cabinet bifold door work:

    60 Degree Cliptop Bi-Fold Self-Closing (#79T8500.10)
    Clip-top 170 Degree Hinge Overlay / Self-Closing (#71T6550)

    Also, regarding one of your earlier comments about hinges for the pantry cabinets. The hinges Blum Clip Top Blumotion hinge - 73B3550 and 0 rise hinge plate 174H7100E will work if your pantry consists of shelves. They do not allow enough clearance if you are planning on having drawers behind the door in you pantry cabinet though. I was at Ikea a couple weeks ago and was checking this out. The 153 degree hinges seem to be supplied by ikea to accommodate drawers.

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    1. Its me AGAIN! and of course I have pull out drawers in the pantry :-) And it figures that the hinges that allow the over extension for a drawer pull out are twice the cost LOL.... Which blum hinge would you recommend that is comparable to the 153 degree ikea hinge? I am clueless when it comes to hinges and blum blumotion doesn't appear to have a 153 degree per say- so I would love any help you can give me. THANKS

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    2. Ruth,

      The Blum 71T7500N is the closest I could find that will work. What you are looking for is door protrusion (P) to be 0 or less to give the drawers room to slide out. This hinge will have a 14.5mm overlay with barkers 3.5mm boring distance when you use the 0 height hinge plate. You can adjust the door 2mm to get it to a 16.5mm overlay but that door is going to be 1mm off on the overlay vs the other doors (remember the other doors have a 17.5mm overlay). Using a hinge with a 14.5mm adjusted to 16.5mm overlay was my solution on the lazy Suzann cabinet and I can't really tell.

      Alternatively you could order those doors without hinge cups and call a local cabinet shop and ask if they can do 35mm hinge cups for you on a few doors. Tell them you need the boring distance at 6mm and you would be golden. The local cabinet shop I called said it would be $10 per door. This was actually my plan, but Barker accidentally drilled hinge cups on the lazy Susan door when I did not specify. They offered to ship out a new undrilled door for free, but it ended up looking fine in my case.

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    3. So I ordered the hinge 71t7500n hinges for the pantry pull out doors but they aren't soft close?? Did I get the wrong ones or do I need a different hinge for the blu motion soft close. My pantry doors slam shut lol. We are so used to the soft close and the pantry door hinges don't seem to have a soft close feature in them???

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    4. Hey Ruth, you ordered the right hinge. Blumm doesn't make a 155 degree hinge with integrated soft close, but the good news is you can make your existing hinge soft close with the clip on mechanism! The part you need is 973a7000.

      They are 2.29 each on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blum-973A7000-Blumotion-Soft-Close-Add-On-for-155-Degree-Zero-Protrusion-Hinge-/400950799186

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  5. Thanks so much for this! I'm just looking into the possibility of using Barker doors on IKEA cabinets and they are so much cheaper than Semihandmade! I have three horizontal lift doors in my kitchen plan and was wondering if the hinges you discuss in this post would be alright for those? I'm sorry if that's a stupid question, as I don't fully understand this hinge business, to be honest. I look forward to your next post on the finished kitchen project! Thanks!

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    1. Chelsea,

      Check out the installation instructions for horizontal doors from Ikea:

      http://www.ikea.com/eg/en/assembly_instructions/utrusta-small-hinge-for-horizontal-door__AA-716210-8_pub.pdf

      All you need to do is buy the Barker door in the right size and install the Ikea horizontal lift hinge according to the instructions from Ikea! It should be no different than using an Ikea door.

      On a side note, you can order than door without hinge cups to save a little money and make the inside of your cabinet door look clean and professional.

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    2. Oh, great! Thanks so much! I'm considering doing maple paint grade shakers on our upper cabinets (in white) and walnut (in darker stain) on the lower cabinets. I would want to do edge banding on the IKEA cabinets for the lowers. Did you just buy the veneer from Barker's for your edge banding?

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    3. If I may... You mentioned doing paint grade maple on your uppers ...why not save money and do alder paint grade on your uppers? We just did and the results are awesome. Also just buy edge banding from a local big box store. Same with your panels -it's cheaper and much easier. You may not know what you need until you see it come together.

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    4. Also if you shop around for a finish guy you may find that he can stain the alder to a dark brown finish and you'll save tons. We were initially going walnut on our lowers and island so that we could stain it darker ourselves. That was going to cost us $3800 from barker. However I found a local finish guy who could take alder to a rich brown and give me a factory finish on both painted uppers and stained lowers for $1700. Going to alder instead of walnut brought my barker order down to $1650. So in the end I spent $3350 for a factory finish in the colors I wanted and I didn't have to finish it myself. Call your local lumber yards and ask for contacts for finish guys and shop around. You may be suprised. And keep in mind if you have an island or any cover panels .. You will have to stick with walnut and try to shop around to find a walnut that matches the barker walnut (everything adds up and it starts to get expensive ) just my two cents ;)

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    5. Most importantly GOOD LUCK this is not a project for the weak at heart lol. (I'm still on hold with Ikea for the umpteenth time to get damaged cabinets replaced. Ugh ) it's gonna be worth it lol.

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    6. Ruth,

      Great call on staining alder to get the color you want. Walnut is really expensive right now; for that price, I would go with Sapele (typically only seen in super high end Euro kitchens)!

      I agree with you using alder-mdf for painting rather than maple on uppers. A lot of people may get turned off by the mdf, but it is much less likely to crack where the panel meets the rail when painted. The only advantage of maple is it is a much harder wood so it is less likely to get dinged, but the panel is just a maple veneer plywood which will ding just as easily as any other panel so you really aren't gaining much durability.

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    7. Here is the secret for cheap cover panels:

      http://homedepotpurebond.com/Documents/CFP101_HomeDepot_Special_Order_Plywood.pdf

      This is the same plywood Barker uses in their door panels so you will get an exact match! Use edge banding on the exposed edges and it will look like solid wood. Go to the prodesk at Home Depot and ask them to order as much as you need. The can get it in whatever veneer you want in about 3 weeks.

      We used Alder ply from HD for all our cover panels and toe kick.

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    8. Ross - thank you for all of the excellent info. Major newb here but considering doing the ikea-barker thing. Have some experience installing kitchens from some summer jobs in college but never did anything like this before. Looking at getting walnut with clear coat doors from Barker. Saw your comment about the cover panels - can you clarify (for major newb - sorry) - do I need to coat the panels after receiving them or are you saying that the coat will match barkers since it is the same wood? Thank you kindly.

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    9. Sd,

      If you get the PureBond walnut plywood from Home Depot it will be the same wood used in the center panel of Barker's doors. You will have to clear coat the plywood to match the clear coat from Barker though. A poly or wiping varnish will get you pretty close. For your edge-banding, use one of FastCap's walnut look PVC edge banding. You can order a sample wheel of all their PVC edge-banding for free to get a good match.

      We used water base poly on the unfinished doors we got from barker. If I had to do it over again, I would use Waterlox on everything in a heartbeat. It is dead simple to apply and you can repair scratches and dings later if you ever need to.

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  6. Chelsea,

    For edge banding I cannot recommend FastCap enough. It is stick-on edge banding rather than iron on. I've used both and never had a problem with the stick-on variety. I would recommend PVC over real wood veneer because it is way easier to cut (the wood veneer tears if you do not cut with the grain) and looks close enough to real wood that you cannot tell a difference.

    You can order samples here:

    https://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=12868&idcategory=0

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    1. I saw them online last night and it looked like a great product. Thanks again!

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  7. Ruth, I think you're completely right about this not being for the faint of heart! There's so much information and things you need to know it's hard to figure it all out. I just know if we do it this way, our cabinets would be so much cooler than if we just went to Lowe's and bought cabinets. I have reconsidered on the Alder/MDF door and you're completely right. Better for painting. Ruth, I'd love to see your finished project!

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    1. Glad I could help. This blog has been a LIFE saver too. Super helpful omg. And as soon as the doors go on I'll send pics. I gave myself a deadline of thanksgiving (we are hosting ) and we are down to the wire with this Reno. It will be a drastic before and after though so I'll post back when done. Are you using a kitchen designer? I worked with Neil from Dezign Blue he was a former Ikea kitchen designer employee and now design kitchens across the globe. It was $400 well spent and he puts your entire Ikea order in their system so buying the cabinets actually took all of 15 minutes. He was one of the best decisions I made in the process. (He didn't pay me to say this in just saying... Every little bit of resource goes a long way !!). I'd love to see your two tone kitchen pics too. Sounds like we are on a similar path

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  8. You didn't by chance do a trash pull out did ya? I forgot my trash would pull out so I have a door with barker hinge cups drilled 3.5 on center and I'm lost on these directions for attaching the hardware to the door front. Do I need new hing cups drilled for the pull out hardware?

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    1. I think I know that answer... Let's revise the question to what should I do when the new hinge cup hole is gonna over lap the barker hole (there's no emoticon for how I feel at the moment it would get a black box for inappropriateness)

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    3. RossDecember 4, 2015 at 2:06 PM

      Luckily you are not the first person to need to plug a hinge cup!

      http://www.rockler.com/35mm-hinge-hole-repair-kit

      or

      http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-Oak-Hinge-Hole-Kit/dp/B001ENZI72

      That wooden plug should be strong enough to mount your door.

      In our kitchen, we didn't use the IKEA pullouts. We used Simple Human pull out trash cans below our sink cabinet:

      http://www.simplehuman.com/35-litre-under-counter-pull-out-recycler-commercial-grade

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  9. Great article! Thanks so much for taking the time to notate it all.
    I've had a question that no one has seemed to address...anywhere at all.
    What size drill bit do I use to drill additional holes for the Ustrusta hinges? Is it 3/16"? or 5mm euro drill bit?
    Can't seem to find a conclusive answer.
    Thanks for the help!

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  10. Suzy, the urusta hinges use 5mm holes. A brad point bit really helps get your holes exactly centered on your mark. You can find 5mm brad point bits at Woodcraft or online.

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  12. I can't thank you enough for your wildly informative posts regarding Ikea, Barker Doors and Blum hinges--you gave us the confidence to embark on this crazy renovation journey, and the results are fantastic.
    I do have a question for you, that I haven't quite been able to puzzle through as of yet: we have a 45 degree corner wall cabinet (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S29040675/), and I'm unsure of what Blum hinges to order. Any suggestions? Thanks again for sharing your work!

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  13. Looking on my past posts I believe Ross had said the corner wall needs Clip-top 170 Degree Hinge Overlay / Self-Closing (#71T6550). Let me just say this- the corner wall cabinet door was the Bain of my exsistance for a while. It took a lot of adjusting to get the door to close right and open correctly with enough clearance for the doors around it not to scrape each other. . The biggest issue I found was that I didn't realize that the corner wall cabinet specifically-comes with these large white bubble shaped stick on things that you need to put on the top and bottom of the cabinet frame so that the cabinet door can shut properly. Without them the door will not close until it hits the frame and when it does its too recessed for the surrounding cabinets to function so they act like a spacer to bump the corner door off the frame a bit. Not sure if it will make sense until you get to this point or if Ross can explain it better. Good luck!!

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    1. Thank you, Ruth! My reading comprehension must have failed me--I didn't realize that you had the same question, too. I have those big white bumpers as well in my "loose parts" container, but had forgotten what they were for--this is so helpful.

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    2. Carrie and Ruth, I updated the FAQ for the 45 degree corner cabinet Carrie linked. My wife and I used the base corner cabinet with bi-fold doors and we don't have any upper corner cabinets so I was unaware of this issue. The solution I posted should work fine, it is just going to require some adjustments as Ruth can attest too!

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  14. No worries. And a tip for ya... Once all is installed grab the instruction manuals from all the cabinets (or a look them up on Ikea) pour a glass of wine or two and go through and identify the miscellaneous parts that you have left over. I had Tupperware containers full of misc. stuff and was suprised to find little things like the white bubble stickers and such as I read through and matched up the random stuff that was left over. Not sure if you did under cabinet lighting but low and behold they come with hooks that run along a track on the lights and you can hang utensils or mugs from them. It also feels good to purge the misc piles of stuff.

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  15. Why can't you just use the IKEA supplied BLUM hinges and mount them in a new location on the box? Is the problem that the standard barker door hinge location is too far in/out from the edge of the door to work?

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    1. Mike, that is exactly the problem. If you look at the second picture in the post, the "B" distance is set by Barker (3.5mm) and is different from Ikea doors which use a "B" distance of 5mm.

      https://handycrowd.com/ikea-sektion-ultrusta-cabinet-hinge-template/

      From that blog above, the distance to the first hole is 48mm from the bottom of the cabinet. You have a 1.5mm reveal on your door so you need the 35mm hinge cup drilled at 48 - 1.5 = 46.5mm from the bottom of the door if you want to use Ikea's mounting holes with same hinges (73B3550) indicated in this post and mounting plate 177H310E180; but Barker charges $30 per door for custom hinge cup placement because they have to retool.

      Alternatively, you order from Barker without the hinge cups bored and instead call around to a local cabinet shop and have then bore all your doors at B=5mm and 46.5mm from the bottom for around $10 a door and use the Ikea's mounting hardware.

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  17. I am just wondering why you didn't just order IKEA hinges and bore your own hinges? That way you can bore in the correct spot on the doors.

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  18. Also, you only mention Barker Doors...have you looked into Raw Doors? https://rawdoors.net/index.php

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  19. Chelsea time got away from me and we’ve remodeled two bathrooms since the kitchen project but here’s a link with before and after a of our kitchen. I just noticed you asked for pics when we were done lol. https://www.houzz.com/user/ruth-hickman

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  20. A couple people have asked "why not just order IKEA hinges and bore your own hinges". Here are several reasons why following Ross's instructions of having Barker bore the hinges for you makes sense. First off, it ends up being about the same cost (and in some cases cheaper). Barker charges $5 per door to bore hinges for their standard placement. Ordering the hinges/hinge plate that Ross suggests above ends up costing less than $5 per hinge, so about $10 per door (2 hinges), so in total about $15 per door. IKEA's hinges and damper are around $14-$23 per door currently. If you decide to bore the hinges yourself, you have to buy special tools to do this. A hinge bore tool and clamps runs about $60. Finally, boring for the hinges yourself is not for the faint of heart and takes some practice/skill. Having Barker do it for you will save time and is way less stressful. It puts the liability on them to get it right. If you mess up, you are out the cost of the door, shipping costs, time and extra $$ for paint (if you have Barker paint the doors). How do I know all of this? Well, I ordered Barker doors without having them bore for hinges before I discovered this site. ;o( Had I read this first, I definitely would have followed Ross's advice. So we are gearing up to bore the hinges ourselves once the doors arrive. All in all, I think Ross's research and info that he has put together here is invaluable and SO helpful to those of us who are using Barker Doors with IKEA cabs. Thanks Ross!

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